Re: two elementary questions...
Tue Sep 19, 13:05

Joyce, you write, "Was not your original question asking why I was under the impression Billy was wearing a cross-draw rigging?"

I asked my original question because after reading your section in VANTAGE POINT on R.F. Coleman's testimony, I wanted to verify your reasoning as to why you believed Billy wore a cross drew rig: Whether it was based on your well-known knowledge of cowboy ways and/or on specific testimony.   I was a little confused because you state in the book that you use the fairly recently found handwritten transcript of the coroner's report for Coleman's testimony and, yet, you reprint the Turner version that, "Billy Clanton's had his hand on his pistol which was in the scabbard. His hand (no mention of which hand) was on his left hip as if in the act of drawing." If you had actually used the handwritten account, you would have quoted Coleman as saying ,(grammar in the original) "Billy Clanton's had his hand on his pistol which was in the scabbard his RIGHT hand was on his LEFT hip as if in the act of drawing." That being the case, Coleman's actual statement disputes Billy drawing his gun with his left hand. In fact, not one witness actually says they saw Billy drawing his pistol with his left hand. 

Joyce, you wrote: "Hatch and Coleman both refer to Billy attempting to get a gun out of the scabbard on his LEFT hip. Can you establish that Billy was not right-handed?"

I don't even know what this means, Joyce. The entire purpose of my post was to point out that Coleman said Billy had his "right hand on his left hip as if in the act of drawing", so, of course I believe he was right handed. Hatch, however, says nothing about seeing Billy drawing his revolver, only that he saw him standing and firing after 3 or 4 shots had been fired. 

Joyce, you write: “IF as you suggest, Billy was NOT shot in the right wrist, then he must have done all his shooting with his right hand. So then, apparently Hatch and Coleman did not make a mistake on which hand Billy used to retrieve the was the Coroner who didn't know his right from his left...He claimed the right hand was destroyed by a bullet, but Wyatt and Hatch and Coleman seem to be under the impression Billy did all his shooting with his right hand. At what point, then, was Billy's right hand damaged? I am confused."

I am the one who is confused here. You, my dear sweet friend, are just wrong.  Neither Coleman or Hatch say Billy used his left hand. Coleman says he used his right hand and Hatch , as I've pointed out above, says nothing at all about seeing Billy draw his weapon. I'm not aware of the coroner describing any wrist wound on Billy.  Thomas Keefe does, as does another witness, I think Fuller. The coroner apparently just described wounds that would have been fatal. Neither Wyatt, Coleman, nor Hatch testify a"s to which hand Billy used when they saw him firing his weapon. Based on testimony, it cannot be clearly established when the wrist wound occurred . Of one believes Claiborne's and Fuller's observations (which I don't, for the most part) that 7 or 8 shots were fired before Billy (or Frank) shot back, one can extrapolate from that the wound happened early in the event, but there is no direct testimony identifying when it happened (I'll return to this issue when I answer Peter Love's post)

Joyce, you write: "The testimonies and the newspaper accounts don't coincide."

We've known all along that there are differences in the NUGGET EPITAPH and HAYHURST/TURNER versions of the various testimonies. However, the handwritten coroner's jury transcript is the only original document we have and it clearly shows that Coleman saw Billy Clanton with his right hand on the scabbard on his left hip as if in the act of drawing after the first two shots. Not grabbing his chest as one prosecution witness claimed. Not clutching his stomach as another said.  AND NOT TRYING TO DRAW HIS WEAPON WITH HIS LEFT HAND. 

  • two elementary questions...Joyce A. Aros, Thu Sep 14 11:33
    Was not your original question asking why I was under the impression Billy was wearing a cross-draw rigging? Hatch and Coleman both refer to Billy attempting to get a gun out of the scabbard on his LEFT... more
    • Re: two elementary questions... — Anonymous, Tue Sep 19 13:05
      • Anonymous two....Joyce A. Aros, Fri Sep 22 10:54
        It is clear that in making comments to the newspaper or even in testimony, one or two people made assumptions based on what they were accustomed to. Coleman was a good example of that. Logic and reason... more
      • Okay, anonymous...Joyce A. Aros, Wed Sep 20 13:37
        My apalogies for mass confusion. I have a good excuse. I have been dealing with a bad case of Bronchitis for two weeks and can't stop the coughing fits. The Dr. has me on pills, a puffer, and I am drinking... more
        • Re: Okay, anonymous...Bob Cash, Sat Sep 23 9:22
          Joyce, I typed up a fairly long response and thought I had posted it, but now I realize it disaappeared into the ether (and I don't have an excuse like bronchitiss). Hope you are felling better. I'll get... more
          • Bob/ How many times have I done that...Joyce A. Aros, Sat Sep 23 10:11
            ...and didn't want to repeat the whole thing again; and also couldn't remember what I said anyway. Thank you for your good wishes; am doing much better.
      • Left HandJones, Tue Sep 19 21:23
        Trial Newpaper Version - Wes Fuller: he was in a crouched, stooping position, leaning against the house, and while so drew his pistol with his left hand; his body was out from the corner so I could see... more
        • Re: Left HandBob Cash, Fri Sep 22 14:31
          Jones, thank you for correcting my contention that no witness testified that Billy drew his pistol with his left hand. I was obviously wrong. When I'm debating with Joyce, I usually peruse all the testimony... more
    • ConclusionPeter Love, Fri Sep 15 2:55
      Justice Wells Spicer -“.. William Clantons was wounded on the wrist of the right hand on first fire and thereafter used his pistol with his left”
      • Re: ConclusionBob Cash, Sat Sep 23 9:17
        Pete, I'm working on a response. Should be done this weekend.
    • Re: two elementary questions...Dan Brown, Thu Sep 14 20:48
      I suspect that in the heat of that mad minute the surviving participants and witnessed missed more than they observed. I suspect Billy was cross drawing, but it would be good to know something about the... more
      • Dan/ also, this took place...Joyce A. Aros, Wed Sep 20 13:40
        ...four years before smokeless gunpowder was available, so you can imagine the confusion in just seconds.