Wayne Sanderson
Yes, the Claiborne shooting...
Sat Jun 04, 9:58

...was reviewed by a Coroner's jury. It is, quite frankly a goldmine for my research, not for the details but for how it was documented. I had already figured out that Cochise County in 1882 was employing Frank Leslie as a Deputy Sheriff, but something I suspected was confirmed by the Claiborne Inquest record: I strongly suspected that the county was using Leslie to do their scribe work- Recording of deeds, meeting minutes, etc, in longhand in the various county record books.

Confirmation of sorts came when I looked at the Claiborne transcript- Every witness' testimony was set down in what looks like Leslie's handwriting, but when Leslie testified, there was nothing. It appears that Leslie was not relieved by another transcriber, he gave his testimony, no one else wrote it down and it is simply lost to history.

In addition to confirming in part my surmise about Leslie being used as a county transcriber for the bargain price of his already being paid as a deputy, it is also germane to this discussion: If this were a serious case wherein the Coroner convened an Inquest with the importance attaching to the fact one was convened that you place upon it, Leslie would NEVER have been the transcriber. The fact that it appears that he was indicates to me that, as I've said above, Coroners Inquests were procedural and investigative, even when the deaths being investigated were more or less open and shut cases of justifiable homicide, and it is indicative in the laxness shown in the transcription of Leslie's testimony (the lack of it) in the Claiborne case that inquests were an across the board procedural function that was often a rubber stamp on a justifiable shooting.

  • So we don't ...Joyce A. Aros, Sat Jun 04 9:29
    ...really know how Matthews, the Coroner, may have felt politically, though it appears he was a Republican. Perhaps he felt pressured by one side or the other, but the statute was on the books and he chose... more
    • further thought out of ignorance....Joyce A. Aros, Sat Jun 04 10:06
      ...of statutes and laws and if I am reading them correctly. Am I misunderstanding that the Coroner's obligation, based on the statute, was to not only establish the cause of death but also whether the... more
      • Re: further thought out of ignorance....Wayne Sanderson, Sat Jun 04 10:13
        The Coroner's Jury would be charged with fixing official responsibility for a death when it was caused by another person. If in their opinion it was justified, they would say so, if it was criminal they... more
        • Re: Re: further thought out of ignorance....Wayne Sanderson, Sat Jun 04 10:37
          To add to the above, while the Inquest verdict was legal and binding with regard to determining the cause of death and identifying whether it was caused by another person, their opinion on criminality... more
          • Wayne, so then....Joyce A. Aros, Sat Jun 04 10:57
            ...does that mean the Inquest was not determined in either direction? Why would no decision be made one way or the other? Why a Hearing appointed but not a Grand Jury trial? Was the Coroner unwilling to... more
            • Re: Wayne, so then....Wayne Sanderson, Sat Jun 04 10:58
              The Spicer hearing results WERE laid before the Grand Jury and they No Billed it.
              • then the Hearing....Joyce A. Aros, Sat Jun 04 11:03
                ...came about only because of Ike's charges?
                • yep! (nm)paul j, Sat Jun 04 11:07
                  • Yep!...okay,Joyce A. Aros, Sat Jun 04 11:13
                    ...I am catching on. Before you lose complete patience with me, understand that though I lean toward being analytical, my fourth grade education prevents me from understanding some terminology, especially... more
                    • Inquests were fact finding tools...Wayne Sanderson, Sat Jun 04 13:10
                      ...that were more aimed toward determining the means and manner of death more than any criminal responsibility. The need for them as a civil process was much greater before modern technical means. Many... more
                      • Okay, Wayne....Joyce A. Aros, Sat Jun 04 17:41
                        I am pretty sure you didn't believe me when I said I only have a fourth grade education as I do not understand quite a bit of what you posted for me though I appreciate the information and will file it... more
                        • Re: Okay, Wayne....Wayne Sanderson, Sat Jun 04 18:38
                          The statute's wording requiring action under certain circumstances was intended to prevent the Coroner from using discretion to NOT hold an inquest, a check against showing favoritism by letting some slide... more
                          • Oh Boy!...Joyce A. Aros, Sun Jun 05 14:49
                            ...If I were not so intrigued, I would have disappeared a few posts ago, but old folks like me don't always learn and I think you are having some fun with me. I have some homework to do, but though... more
                            • Re: Oh Boy!...Wayne Sanderson, Sun Jun 05 15:26
                              I do have to go along with you on your opinion of the prosecutors- For seemingly smart guys, they were imbeciles. They trotted out their whole case, witness testimony, strategy and everything at a Preliminary... more
                              • One last thought,,,,Joyce A. Aros, Mon Jun 06 8:11
                                ...Wayne, I think our discussion has been really worthwhile from my side and I've learned some stuff I had considered but from a slightly different angle. I am not a historian; I tend to examine things... more
                            • Re: Oh Boy!...Wayne Sanderson, Sun Jun 05 15:06
                              Don't forget how the McLaury brother with the law degree showed up and insinuated himself into the ongoing hearing on the prosecution side and damn near hijacked the whole side's case. What I said about... more
                          • Re: Re: Okay, Wayne....Wayne Sanderson, Sat Jun 04 18:52
                            To follow up: Arizona Territory in 1881 was an interesting place, criminal law-wise. One interesting feature is that even a private citizen could bring a criminal charge as a presentment to the court and... more
                    • Joyce -paul j, Sat Jun 04 11:16
                      I always appreciate your getting in and arguing your point of view. It keeps things lively and encourages all of us. What fun would it be if we all agreed? all the best! paul
                      • Paul, that is very gracious of you...Joyce A. Aros, Sat Jun 04 11:19
                        ...I am by nature a 'pot stirrer.' Too bad I couldn't be right more often...but, Oh, well!!!
                        • Joyce, where were you whenDan Brown, Sun Jun 19 17:47
                          the Cowboys really needed you? Ike would have loved your support.
                          • Dan/Someone has to see the light...Joyce A. Aros, Mon Jun 20 9:53
                            ...in my overstated opinion. It is hard to get past the carefully planted bias, but well worth the effort. Regardless of the extended discussions on the subject, the fact remains the statute was... more
    • Yes, the Claiborne shooting... — Wayne Sanderson, Sat Jun 04 9:58
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