B.J.
Re: Here we go again....
Mon May 01, 4:47

Hey Mike, I completely understand your frustration with what I refer to as 'cowboy behavioral rationalizations'.

That said, I just wanted to pass on a consultation I had with my history master's resource professor per the response to Joyce.

Any argument which elicits further research and discussion...

...becomes a valid, if not an accurate argument.

Any argument which elicits balance to a discussion, is a valid argument.

I wanted to wait and correct (if needed) my initial agreement with your response to Joyce.

Sorry if my response was delayed however it was important that I not substitute my opinion as opposed an academic observation.

  • Here we go again.... — Mike Mihaljevich, Thu Apr 06 20:04
    Ike made threats, the Earps chose to ignore him, Doc did not. It's that simple. The Earps intervened to keep the scenario from getting violent. That's blatantly obvious. Yet she calls that at attempt... more
    • Re: Here we go again.... — B.J., Mon May 01 4:47
      • Any argument? — Mike Mihaljevich, Wed May 03 9:29
        Let me clear the air. It is not the opposing perspective that I am against. One-sided discussions offer no enlightenment, but ignorant bias is also where enlightenment goes to die. What I AM against... more
        • I suspect I am going to regret — olds, Fri May 12 15:56
          wading into the middle of this contentiousness, but as I have in good faith been invited to do so, I shall do my best to play the mediating umpire, if not the know-it-all keeper of the peace. (Granted,... more
        • Re: Any argument? — B.J., Sun May 07 11:07
          Mike, with all due respect Your statement: “The fact that those words come from a professor gives them no more credibility” Is a bit over the top? How do you rationalize away a perspective... more
          • Missed My Meaning — Mike Mihaljevich, Sun May 07 14:09
            It's not over the top because the statement isn't true. It doesn't matter if it came from a sidewalk propped or a person with a degree. Have you not lived long enough to know that a credential, a... more
            • Have you not lived long enough.... — B.J., Mon May 08 3:29
              Actually Mike, you might be right. LOL My daughter thinks it funny that at the tender age of 76 and having served two tours of duty during the vietnam war, recently full time retired after working... more
              • Tender age… — Henrik63, Tue May 09 0:02
                B.J. You have my sincere respect for going “the academical way” aiming at another degree! Thank you for your service! Respectfully, Henrik
            • Re: Missed My Meaning — B.J., Mon May 08 3:01
              Hey Mike, it occurred to me that maybe you and Joyce have a at least a few things in common. You both reject the history processes which I have learned during my graduate studies. Several times... more
        • Any argument should be... — Joyce A. Aros, Thu May 04 16:51
          ...acceptable on a discussion board and that certainly seems to be the case here. But this poster, M & M, suggests that one-sided arguments, which offer no enlightenment in his view, might be the main,... more
    • Don't go again. Talk about it? — Tom Gaumer, Tue Apr 18 13:01
      Mike The Earps watched the Doc/Ike situation develop for awhile rather than bring it to a quick halt. They did not arrest Doc for making public threats (Article 7 Disturbing the Peace) They did not arrest... more
    • A reading of the testimonies — Butch Badon, Sun Apr 09 16:49
      reveals the Earps and Holliday were the first to initiate the action. Ike was eating at the Alhambra when he was accosted first by the Earps and then by Holliday Butch
    • so I have to ask...once again, — Joyce A. Aros, Sat Apr 08 10:12
      ...what were the threats made by Ike PREVIOUS to the accusation by Doc Holliday in the lunchroom or saloon where Ike was quietly enjoying a Beer, a sandwich and likely catching up on a recent newspaper's... more
      • Question — Pat Mulligan, Tue Apr 25 14:34
        What was Doc referring to when he approached Ike ? What were the remarks that had angered Doc? It seems to have been of a personal nature ,enough so that it angered Doc and sent him looking for Ike.
      • Re: so I have to ask...once again, — Dan Brown, Thu Apr 20 11:24
        Could be Doc was a little more irritated by Issac than the Earp brothers. He was known to get ahead of the news with a drink or three before taking his evening stroll. Maybe he just didn't like the cowboy... more
        • Dan/ Could be?... — Joyce A. Aros, Thu Apr 20 17:04
          ...well, yes; anything 'could be.' But don't you think that he should have a reason for the irritation? Even if he didn't like cowboys or ranchers, and being an urban dweller, it is entirely possible he... more
      • Again and Again and Again — gobs, Mon Apr 10 5:06
        Joyce ... all Mike Mihaljevich and myself hope is that you please don't forever reiterate what you yourself consider mostly false testimonies ... read Tefertiller pages 114 & 115
        • Mr. gobs...... — Joyce A. Aros, Mon Apr 10 17:59
          I followed your suggestion and looked up the pages you recommended. However, on page 114, paragraph two, I ran into a minor roadblock. But it is the way my mind works, I guess. The writer states... more
          • Mr. gobs...... — gobs, Tue Apr 11 2:41
            Joyce ... apologies, I thought we were concentrating on the actions in the lunchroom ... I have no place for the previous conjecture [or oral history] either ... take care What is this first threat... more
            • gobs/ my turn to apologize... — Joyce A. Aros, Tue Apr 11 7:09
              ...you are absolutely right. We were supposed to be concerned about the incident in the lunchroom, but when I started reading the pages referring to that, the references referring to the start of that... more
              • gobs/ reference to 'first threat...' — Joyce A. Aros, Tue Apr 11 7:43
                We were talking about Doc Holliday's arrival at the lunchroom after Ike had settled down to some lunch. When Doc came in he began berating Ike quite strongly, accused him of threatening the Earps, and... more
                • gobs/ reference to 'first threat...' — gobs, Thu Apr 13 5:56
                  Joyce ... oh, I see ... but. as I said before, I was referring to the action in the lunchroom, not any testimony as to the verbal interaction ... that's open to any interpretation and I couldn't argue... more
                  • gobs/ confusion... — Joyce A. Aros, Thu Apr 13 10:40
                    ...I am not quite sure what you are trying to explain to me. If we are referring to just the ACTION in the lunchroom, it seems clear enough. Holliday obviously was the initiator, approaching Ike without... more
                    • gobs/ confusion... — gobs, Thu Apr 13 12:59
                      Joyce ... I'll go back to the beginning ... no hearsay by implication ... no witness conjecture on intent [especially by the author] based on other witnesses' statements ... all witness statements are... more
                      • gobs / sitting in the lion's den?... — Joyce A. Aros, Thu Apr 13 13:29
                        ...no real reason to fear there, was there? Even after the confrontation and threatening by Morgan, Ike wasn't concerned about joining the follow-up card game. Neither was Tom. Later Ike met Wyatt and... more
                        • gobs / sitting in the lion's den?... — gobs, Fri Apr 14 6:06
                          Joyce ... irony is never wasted, even on stony ground but your first paragraph and most of the second is fine I thought I'd answered the previous missive ... if not ... "Holliday obviously was the... more
        • Tefertiller — Butch Badon, Mon Apr 10 12:05
          has an agenda. I read everything he writes with utmost caution. I double-check what I read from Casey. I am not saying Casey doesn't have a great deal of knowledge, I just think where the Earps are... more
          • Casey's 'agenda!' — Sharon Cunningham, Sun May 14 9:34
            Y'all, if you go back and read ALL these posts... pro & con the freakin' Earps... EVERYBODY has an agenda!! Casey and Joyce might just have more prominent approaches, both having been published, yes?
            • Sharon: 'agenda' vs 'perspective' ? — B.J., Sun May 14 13:54
              Hi Sharon, happy to see you posting again. I just wanted to mention something Casey said during one of his real time/real world discussions years ago. If I remember correctly, ...Casey said... more
          • Tefertiller — gobs, Tue Apr 11 2:36
            Butch ... your unbiased opinion ... where do you double-check and what mistakes do you find? I have no idea about this first threat thing ... I should have told Joyce to avoid the mental conjecture... more
            • Well, — Butch Badon, Wed Apr 12 15:11
              Mr. Tefertiller once posed that an article in a San Francisco newspaper was evidence of an investigation into Wyatt Earp in which Wyatt was given a clean bill of health. The article - which Casey sent... more
              • Well, — gobs, Thu Apr 13 5:38
                Butch ... so, not so much a mistake as a biased opinion ... and based on an article from the notoriously unbiased SF press? As you don't pinpoint the investigation how can I argue? A lot of work would... more
                • Dodge is a canard. — Butch Badon, Thu Apr 13 14:21
                  Carolyn Lake did not have the diaries (by her own admission) for the Tombstone years of Fred Dodge. How can we know if Dodge's recollections for that period are even close to what happened. And Ms. Lake... more
                  • Dodge is a canard — gobs, Fri Apr 14 4:29
                    Butch ... as I said, how can I argue? Why Dodge? I just threw four WF names in to tease out the missing details of your newspaper story Take care
                    • Dodge — Butch Badon, Sun Apr 16 18:11
                      was a Wells Fargo detective from 1890 to his retirement. Prior to 1890 there is no proof Dodge was anything other than a friend of Wyatt Earp. Butch
                      • Fred Dodge — Peter Brand, Tue Apr 18 15:54
                        Hi Butch Have you done any deep-dive research into Fred Dodge and his partner from 1860-1890? Cheers PB
                      • Dodge — gobs, Mon Apr 17 2:41
                        Well, you did mention the San Francisco papers
                        • Yes — Butch Badon, Mon Apr 17 18:28
                          But only in the newspapers context with Casey Tefertiller and what he attempted to pass off as a Wells-Fargo investigation. There was no investigation. Butch
                          • Yes — gobs, Tue Apr 18 4:36
                            Butch ... how many more sitting ducks do I have to post for you to shoot down before you show the rest of us the damning evidence or what you keep confirming as fraudulent? What evidence and provided... more
        • gobs/ attention, please... — Joyce A. Aros, Mon Apr 10 9:30
          I have a solution for you. Why don't you and Mike just not read any of my posts? Don't you have anything else to do? There are others, like myself, who find there are still questions about the Hearing... more
      • The Poster [and a true researcher] — gobs, Mon Apr 10 4:25
        https://nediscapp.com/discussion.cgi?disc=39627&article=39853&search_page=0&search_term=Mike%20Mihaljevich https://nediscapp.com/discussion.cgi?disc=39627&article=39222&search_page=0&search_term=... more
      • Who made the threats in the lunchroom — Tom Gaumer, Sat Apr 08 12:41
        Joyce Isn't it true that in the lunchroom the night before the shooting on Fremont street this testimony says Doc made all the threats trying to get Ike to shoot it out and Ike just repeated he was unarmed?... more
        • Tom How do you know Doc was illegally armed? — Pat Mulligan, Tue Apr 25 14:30
          Tom There is no proof of whether or not Doc was illegally armed. He could have gotten a Permit from the Sherriff or the Town Marshall. We do not know ,TRUE ?
          • True but — Tom Gaumer, Sun Apr 30 3:10
            Pat Are you sure the Sheriff or Town Marshal could give a permit? I thought it was another source for a permit? How could Doc have been legally armed? He could be the security in a saloon... more
            • Tom Doc Permit — Pat Mulligan, Sat May 06 8:07
              Permits as I understand, at the time, were issued by the local Law enforcement at their discretion. Very similar to how it is handled today except with much less paperwork! Perhaps someone more... more
              • who was in charge on authorizing carry permits? — Tom Gaumer, Mon May 08 16:37
                Pat According to Lynn Bailey in his book "Too Tough To Die" It is hereby declared to be unlawful to carry in the hand or upon the person , or otherwise any deadly weapon within said City of Tombstone,... more
                • whsander@gmail.com — Wayne Sanderson, Mon May 08 23:31
                  Presiding Officer in this case was the city Chief of Police. The members of the police commission were Commissioners. The CoP was an officer, and would be presiding because he stood election for the position.... more
            • Permits were given by — Tom Gaumer, Tue May 02 4:07
              obtaining a permit in writing (and upon good cause shown by affidavit) from the presiding officer or the Board of Police Commissioners" Keep Laughing Tom
          • Pat/Tom...regarding illegal arms... — Joyce A. Aros, Sat Apr 29 5:56
            ...There is no proof that Doc was illegally armed and so there is no proof he wasn't. So the only sensible and logical conclusion arrives with the recorded conduct of the lawfully behaved marshal's party... more
            • Joyce Doc Permit — Pat Mulligan, Sat May 06 8:11
              Do you not think that the City Marshall would know how had a Valid Permit for a weapon? Especially in the case of Holliday? If the permit was known about there is no need to actually ask to see it!
        • Yep — Butch Badon, Sun Apr 09 16:50
          Tom, you have the order of insults correctly. Butch
        • Great point — Peter Love, Sat Apr 08 20:42
          there, Tom. It is apparent that many of the townsmen were heeled in defiance of the law. This probably included most of the gamblers. Joyce is right; the hearing evidence of any threats made by the... more
          • Howdy Peter and thanks. — Tom Gaumer, Sun Apr 09 4:05
            I'll bet most of the gamblers were armed. I wonder if there are stats on how many shootings they were responsible for? Here is another point that seems very unclear to me. What do you think? ... more
            • Let me clear that up, Tom. — Bob Cash, Tue Apr 18 13:19
              You asked, "Both Virgil and Wyatt swore in Spicers court they heard Behan say he had disarmed the cowboys, believed it and put their guns away. If they truly believed it, why didn't they thank Behan and... more
              • Re: Let me clear that up, Tom. — Peter Love, Wed Apr 19 4:15
                Hi Bob The thing is according to his own words, Virgil initially did trust Behan to go down alone to disarm them. Something or someone must have changed his mind.
                • Peter Virgil Trust Behan? — Pat Mulligan, Sat May 06 8:17
                  Peter Virgil may not have trusted Behan but considered that letting him go talk was a prudent thing to do in order to avoid a confrontation. Anyone in Virgil, or any of the City Marshall's posse,... more
                • Maybe it was Virgils desire for a fight? — Tom Gaumer, Sun Apr 23 5:37
                  Peter When Virgil swore under oath that he believed Behan had disarmed them and kept going down there anyway, he could no longer claim he was going to disarm them. Keep Laughing Tom
                • Re: Re: Let me clear that up, Tom. — Bob Cash, Wed Apr 19 10:01
                  Peter, I find nothing in the Behan or Virgil's testimony that state that Virg showed that he trusted Behan to disarm the Cowboys, just that he did not try to stop him from doing so. There was a lot of... more
                  • Re: Re: Re: Let me clear that up, Tom. — Peter Love, Wed Apr 19 17:56
                    Bob Virgil said “I called on Johnny Behan who refused to go with me…he said if he went with me they would fight sure., they would not give up their arms to me. He said ..I will go down alone and see... more
              • Both Virgil and Wyatt swore under oath — Tom Gaumer, Wed Apr 19 3:08
                Bob that they believed Behan said he had disarmed the cowboys. They then testified under oath they believed Behaan and put their guns away. Obviously they were both lieing as they continued towards... more
            • Another good point — Peter Love, Sun Apr 09 5:52
              Tom Yep, and I think Wyatt said he’d actually put his pistol in a more inconvenient position on the strength of that. Sure. My take is that this was to claim they had no aggressive intention. But... more
              • You are probably right — Tom Gaumer, Wed Apr 19 3:21
                Peter Wyatt said he put his gun in his pocket. Virgil said he moved his gun to his left hip and put Doc's walking stick in his gunhand. Keep Laughing Tom
              • I thought — Butch Badon, Mon Apr 10 12:14
                the testimony was that Doc had the shotgun under his coat. Remember the day was chilly. Butch
                • Re: I thought — Peter Love, Mon Apr 10 17:51
                  Butch That’s true. I’ve been reading “Wyatt Earp by Wyatt Earp” which is the Flood manuscript. Wyatt says Doc was getting ragged by onlookers for the “popgun”. I guess he tried to cover it coming... more
              • Re: Another good point — Tom Gaumer, Sun Apr 09 21:26
                Peter Yep . Wyatt said he put his revolver in his pocket after he believed Behan had disarmed the cowboys. I think the most likely interpretation of the Earps actions was what you are saying. They... more
              • Peter, let's not forget ... — Joyce A. Aros, Sun Apr 09 8:52
                ...how Virgil completely condensed the whole scenario by eliminating the immediate attack on Frank McLaury and the shotgun assault on Tom in his testimony so as to focus completely on Billy Clanton, as... more
    • of course, here we go again... — Joyce A. Aros, Sat Apr 08 8:50
      It's been a little unexciting on BJ's the past week or two so I thought I would see if I could get a few folks involved in a discussion of sorts. After all, isn't that what the site is all about? We all... more
      • Doc sent for — bfrey, Tue Apr 11 8:50
        I always thought the story of why they had to get Doc to return to Tombstone in such a hurried fashion was b.s. What was the urgency? The explanation makes no sense at all. It seems Doc was the person... more
        • Howdy Bfrey — Tom Gaumer, Wed Apr 12 13:17
          I believe research has shown the celebration in Tucson where Morgan supposedly went to get Doc did not occur at the time claimed by the story. I don't remember the dource for the conflicting dates. ... more
          • Howdy Tom, getting Doc — bfrey, Thu Apr 13 10:49
            The date I have is Doc returning Oct 22 a Saturday evening and confronting Ike that Tuesday evening. According to Kate, Morgan arrived in Tucson and tapped Doc on the shoulder and said "we want you... more
            • bfrey/ that 'We' is important... — Joyce A. Aros, Thu Apr 13 13:19
              ...because it demonstrates that all the Earps are in unison, agreement about something. This is not a personal slight to an individual. Something more is going on and it convinces me that Doc's job was... more
        • bfrey/ that is the question.... — Joyce A. Aros, Tue Apr 11 9:16
          ...the more you break it down and analyze it, the clearer it is that the Earps side of the story makes no logical sense. They are very poor at putting it all together. It has nothing to do with being... more
          • motive — bfrey, Tue Apr 11 12:31
            I think were missing a key point.... the Earp"s motive. Why send for Doc in a seemingly emergency circumstance to just placate Ike? Why rile Ike at all as they apparently were around when it occurred?... more
            • bfrey/ the key point!... — Joyce A. Aros, Wed Apr 12 5:04
              Bruce, that is the really serious thing that we are missing, as you suggest. Naturally, I have a couple of theories on that if you are interested. Some people don't know when to quit! My first thought... more